The Dangerous Myth of Neutrality: Why Coaches Must Lead with Truth with Gabriel Keczan
Norbert Orlewicz Welcome to between two coaches, a digital mentors podcast for coaches, consultants, authors, speakers, and experts. I'm your host Norbert Orlewitz. And in each episode, we've got a conversation with successful and emerging thought leaders in the mentoring industry to share experiences, insights, and practical strategies.
To make a bigger impact with our work. This podcast is sponsored by the
digital mentors compass workshop. Most coaches struggle to enroll enough clients consistently, not because they're bad at coaching, but simply because they lack clarity and simplicity in their marketing strategy. Simply put, they don't know how to stand out in their market and attract their ideal, perfect clients.
That's why we created the digital mentors compass experience. It's a step by step workshop. Where you will clarify your marketing message and receive an AI powered 30 plus page marketing report personalized for your specific business and goals. It's not another course or a cookie cutter system. This is an interactive workshop.
I personally lead where you will walk away with a personal road map to finally achieve your goals with a simple plan you can actually follow. Register to attend the next workshop for free at compassworkshop. com. Again, that's compass workshop. com
today's guest is Gabrielle Kazan. I'm really excited for our guest here today to have this conversation.
We might go a little bit deep here today. Gabriel is an author, speaker, warrior, trainer, life, and marriage coach for men, author of bestselling book alive on purpose, Gabriel helps men prevent divorce and master your married game. He delivers therapeutic coaching for men who want it all. Welcome to the conversation.
It's great to have you here.
Gabriel Keczan Thanks, Norbert. Great to be with you.
Norbert Orlewicz Yeah, awesome. I'm excited for this conversation. I got some great questions to ask you. We're going to, uh, hopefully, uh, you know, ruffle some feathers here in this conversation. Uh, we're going to be talking about maybe some polarizing topics. And, uh, some polarizing perspectives when it comes to coaching as well.
So I'm really excited to get the conversation started on this. I'm going to start you off with just a thought provoking question. We want to hear a little bit about your personal story. Uh, you know, as you know, coaching is about transformation. So in your life, what's been your most life changing, impactful transformation and how did it change you?
And perhaps even how did it change your approach to coaching?
Gabriel Keczan Well, um, the first one that comes to mind is the divorce initiation, which we were kind of spit balling a bit before this call about, You know, going having those experiences as men, um, and marriage as an initiatory fire. So I, I went through a divorce, uh, After a four year marriage that would have ended about 14, 15 years ago now Uh, and that was a big wake up call and then it's funny because we talk transformation as if there's just one but really it's a domino effect and a A cascade effect because that set off a chain of events of me Looking at what went wrong there and how do I need to work with this?
You know, look in the mirror and go, who is this guy? And why did my vision for what I thought everything was going to be collapse completely? Um, so then there's the long seeking and, um, finding. phases after that of piecing myself together and recalibrating my vision of who am I. Um, and I mean, there's a whole other bunch of journeys that I could get into, but from a high level, I wrote the book alive on purpose for men, because what my thesis is, is that when a man knows his purpose, he knows who, who he is, what he wants and, and where he wants to go.
And then he's comfortable in his own skin with that. And with all that and that, and that that's the X factor that transforms men's lives from, from being lives of quiet desperation, um, and collapse, uh, and acquiescence to some other tyranny, to, to being a path of, of truth, a true path of who he really is and, you know, his soul's purpose on this planet and, um, you know, living in that assignment.
And so that's the long and the short of it.
Norbert Orlewicz give me a little timeline here on a timeline understanding. When did you get into coaching and what was the transition into coaching? What did you do before? Have you always been a coach or was that divorce, uh, you know, a catalyst for you moving into coaching? Give us a little story there on how you transitioned into coaching.
When did you get
Gabriel Keczan So I, I don't even. Completely feel comfortable with the term coach.
Norbert Orlewicz Ah, okay. Yes.
Gabriel Keczan I like, I like transformational leadership, but that's, that's a mouthful and that, that in the marketplace, that's kind of, uh, too big a mouthful to spit around because it's confusing and it doesn't point to anything. And we have an industry built out thanks to people like Tony Robbins and, you know, the big names who, who, who've embodied and shown the world that, Hey, this is.
This is real. This is a real space and a calling. So after my divorce, I did a uh, I did a four year commitment with a Sundance community of vision fasting and dancing in this ancient Lakota ceremony, which was um, in BC. It had migrated up here. Um, And that was a big commitment to knowing who I am and going through this.
And then at the end of that, um, I actually took a two year training to be a therapist and I didn't start as a coach. I took an art therapy training, uh, for two years. And even that I did a bit kicking and screaming like I didn't think I wanted to be a therapist, but I was following my heart and, uh, this unique fusion of art and therapy was a was calling me.
So, um, then I, then I was a therapist. And so for a few years from 2016. I was working with couples, I was working with individuals, and I was working with youth because of the art therapy is a great way to get youth into the conversation of self work because it's, you know, playful and we use art making in the process.
but ultimately in 2020, uh, I expanded into the coaching space because I also realized the limits of what was possible in therapy, uh, and also how therapy wasn't always serving men. I ran men's groups for three years. Um, and so I also Really got deep into the men's coach men's coaching space, but ultimately the men's workspace, which is, you know, what do men need?
And why doesn't therapy always work for guys? And what do men really need? Which is part of what I say in my book is that we, we need to be challenged and we need, um, We need to be confronted with where we're lying, uh, to ourselves. And then we need, um, that brotherhood to pick us up, push us forward and help us when we, you know, uh, get into that, that trouble of, of the, of the lie or the collapse or, or the addiction or whatever it is, yes.
Norbert Orlewicz Wow. Yeah, I love that. Okay. So this is a perfect transition because you just mentioned the fact that therapy doesn't necessarily serve everybody and specifically men. And there's a post that you posted recently. Uh, and I was like, we need to talk about this on the podcast because I work with a lot of coaches.
I work with a lot of ICF certified coaches. And so coaching from a certificate, the official term coaching as it relates to certified coaching is about coaches being neutral. Right. So the idea of neutrality and a coach helps the client to discover for themselves, the answers instead of guiding, because that's more consulting.
Right. And I have a, I have my own few views about this because I'm not a certified coach. I don't use the term coach for myself either. I teach people in marketing and, and business strategy. And I know the importance in marketing of leadership. Leadership is so important to marketing. This is one of the reasons that coaches struggle is because they're taught to be this neutral guide. And in marketing, you cannot be neutral, but your post was exactly the opposite. You talked about the dangerous myth of neutrality and how this can actually hinder the growth of a man and why men struggle in therapy. Can you expand on this a little bit more? Cause I thought that this was a really valuable insight.
Gabriel Keczan Yeah, I'd love to. And thank you for for that framing of the question,
because I didn't realize that coaching trainings, um, push a position of neutrality. I didn't realize that. But that's also the case in therapy, which is why I have a problem with the whole discipline of therapy. But I'm not the first one who has.
I mean, James Hillman wrote a book called We've Had 100 Years of Psychotherapy and the World's Getting Worse. Like he wrote that book like 30 years ago. So there's a lot about the discipline that, uh, is lacking. But, um, basically, uh, you can't be neutral on a moving train. And each of us as a facilitator, we have our own, uh, biases.
We have our own experience. And ultimately, I can't help anyone, um, beyond how Much work I've done on myself to get them through some pit, some grief or some fear or some problem, whatever it is. Uh, so especially in the couples coaching space or couples therapy space, there's this myth of neutrality. Uh, where, where, uh, You know, a couples therapist doesn't want to pick sides and have a,
well, I'm going to favor the woman or I'm going to favor the man.
They want to play this game of neutrality. And Terry real is a therapist who also, um, says the same thing. And he breaks the earth breaks with orthodoxy and says, that's, that's not helping anyone to pretend that you're neutral. You have an obligation to your people to see what they're struggling with and, and say it like it is.
Like describe what's happening. If, if someone's bullshitting or lying or not showing up, then you want to call them forward. You want to name it and, and deal with it, hit it head on. My, my own mentor likes to call it the cross check. And I call it the cross check of truth. It's like, we're hockey fans here.
And sometimes, you know, the game gets fiery and I'm not doing anyone a favor. If I'm or I'm not leading them, let's say I'm not leading them powerfully if I'm shying away from conflict myself, and I'm afraid to upset them or I'm afraid to make them not like me, I want my clients to have a little bit of, uh, fear of our confrontations because I'm going to be listening to not only what they say, but what they haven't realized yet.
I'm going to cross them, cross check them with truth if they need that. And, and the dance is that sometimes they need a cross check of truth and sometimes they need a hand up. They need, uh, uh, some nurturing, right? They need some encouragement. Um, so, you know, I like the distinction you made too, about coaching, asking powerful questions and drawing the answers out of people
versus consulting where I actually give them a roadmap and say, here's what you got to do and go attack it like that and do this, that, and that.
And then come back and we'll debrief it. Um, and what I do ultimately is a combination of both. It's a bit of both.
Norbert Orlewicz Yeah, I love how you mentioned what men need. Uh, you know, they need to be challenged. They need to be confronted. All of that really resonates with me. And maybe that's because in my personality, my personality is one who challenges. Like, that is what I do. That is my, there's a, there's a, Personality thing called the YOS, the Y operating system. And my whole reason for existence is to challenge the status quo. Like that is what I do. Right. So I'm naturally like that. Um, so that's why I have to sometimes appreciate and understand that not everybody is like me. But it's interesting to hear you say that with men, it's really important that they are challenged and confronted.
Cause I mean, all humans lie to themselves, but what is it about men and the lies that we tell ourselves?
Gabriel Keczan well, you know, there's the mask, right? There's the mask, the social mask of, um, looking for outside validation or looking to fit in. And there's a big difference between fitting in and belonging. Fitting in will always be a prison if I'm trying to fit in to the norms and standards of the status quo.
It'll always be a prison sentence of like, well, I'm going to only get this far because that's what the norm is. Um,
even biblical, uh, perspectives remind us that disruption always follows intention. And when you're really tuned in to the calling to be who you are, um, it's going to be disruptive. And it's going to trigger people.
It's going to piece people off. I think that there's a, there's a meme out there that says something about how you, you know, people aren't mad at you. It's just that you're just disrupting their demons,
Norbert Orlewicz Yeah. Oh, that's so true. Like what a, what a reflection. Isn't that what happens in our, in our life, in personal relationships, intimate relationships, marriages, uh, and with kids.
Gabriel Keczan man. Yeah. Parenting is the ultimate. Well,
Norbert Orlewicz You talk about that. I read a recent post of yours. Uh, actually it was the recent video that you posted. And I love what you said, uh, about the trifecta of insanity. I've spoken to this as well. I've spoken about this to, to women as well. Cause I, we work with a lot of, um, female coaches, female entrepreneurs, and they're balancing all these different things.
Men are bound, balancing all these things. You were speaking specifically to men, but it's the same thing.
Family, men with businesses, family, women with businesses, leading your business. Keeping the love alive in your marriage and family, and then optimizing your own personal health and wellness and physicality and vitality.
The trifecta of insanity. How much do we have to appreciate the challenges that we face as entrepreneurs, as businessmen, trying to grow a business, manage a family, manage our kids, manage finances, manage our health, it's sometimes so overwhelming, how can we do it all by ourselves on our own?
Gabriel Keczan we can't.
That's the thing is I, I, you know, reached beyond my means when it was 2020 and I realized I needed help. And they say when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of changing. That's when people change. And so I heard someone speak into my pain with certainty, uh, that they had a way forward for me and for me, it was in, in business growth.
That was, that was my pain. I was like, I need, I need to have a future cause what I'm doing right now isn't working. Um, And I can't stay inside of this game, but the whole challenge of having it all as the father, as the leader in your business, and as the husband who's keeping love alive, that happens to be the great work of, um, being a man on the path and inside of it.
My coaching, I have a 30 day challenge that I hook men up to, and it's called, it's a wake up warrior challenge, uh, and it helps provide the frameworks that, that allow guys to play this game and gamify the process, because that can feel like an incredible burden, and that's why guys will hide in the dark.
Guys will lie to themselves about their addictions, whether it's porn addiction or substances or whatever they're doing to numb out. Or to, um, forget. And, um, in order to get the breakthroughs, we need a vision that seems impossible to us right now. It needs to feel impossible for it to become a challenge.
And that's why this. This warrior, uh, calling is a challenge based lifestyle. So we gamify it and that works with the dopamine and it, it, it ultimately looks at all of life as a game to take, to lift some of that burden and say, well, how do I every day just hit my fitness goals? How do I make that a game where I give myself a point?
If I get to the gym, how do I fill the cups and speak life into my marriage? And, and. speak life into my kids every day and so that I get those, you know, points and how do I look after my own spiritual connection with God every day and go, am I on the path? Am I telling the truth? Am I taking the action, becoming the man I need to be?
And so if we start playing with it, um, and hitting those core four kingdoms of body, being, balance, and business, then all the process of building a life. Becomes possible and and what was impossible becomes possible because we're creating it right and um, and it and it takes a level of crazy. You have to be somewhat psychopath to say yes to doing the impossible.
And as an entrepreneur, you're doing that because you're creating a path where there was none and you're saying I'm going to choose to add value this way and I'm going to trust that this is gonna work. Um,
and then, then you get those big wins and you're like, yeah, actually this is the way
Norbert Orlewicz do you,
do you think that all men for the, for the most part are motivated and inspired by this challenge? Or do you find that some people just, some men just don't have what it takes and is that, is that something that they haven't dealt with yet or worked on? Like, do you, do you, do you get men that, do you speak with men that are like, No, I don't want challenge.
I don't need challenge. I just want a comfortable life. I don't need to create this big vision and mission for myself. Do you get some resistance to that? I mean, obviously you probably don't attract those types of men, but,
Gabriel Keczan I, I do. And that's, that's the whole, that's in the pocket of like, it's the decision making and of, you know, is, is a man. Up for up for the challenge because there's, there's limiting
Norbert Orlewicz it sounds
Gabriel Keczan there's victim mentality. And I think there's a difference between support and transformation. Uh, and for years I, I ran a men's group and I didn't really realize it until after I was done those three years of the way I did it, because I.
I ran it based on a model from the Mankind Project, and we used King, Warrior, Lover, Magician, the four archetypes, and we went through their structure. I was trained a bit by Mankind Project, so I, I worked it, but here's what I realized is that a support group is kind of like AA. It
gives people a comfortable group experience where everyone can validate their own victim identity and stay at a certain plateau, but the real disruptive leadership game is for the few and you're right.
It's not for everyone. I think there are, um, studies out there. I forget what the name of the study was. The Milgram. I don't know. I'm not.
Norbert Orlewicz that there was the Milgram experiment.
Gabriel Keczan I don't know if that's the one, but there's one where it says, you know, there's always going to be 80 percent of the people who just want to be told what to do.
Norbert Orlewicz Oh yeah. Right.
Without the Milgram experiment was about authority.
Gabriel Keczan Was that what that was? Yeah. About authority. Yeah. That might've been it. And then the 20 are like the leaders and that's the 80, 20 principle, right? In any leadership, uh, zone, you're going to play with that rule that the 20 percent of the decision making will drag the other 80 percent of actions. Um, so we can look at that as individuals or organizations or families, and then not only look at that 20%, but, but boil it down to the 5 percent of like the, the real decisions of how do I, you know, hone in on my unique ability and commit.
To living a life in my gift, even if there's uncertainty in it, living a life on purpose, rather than the comfortable chains of slavery or the handcuffs of the golden, the golden handcuffs of the paycheck or whatever it is, um, So yeah, I don't believe everyone signed up for this life for, for, for the same reasons.
I think that some people hear the call and they say, I want it, let's go. And they're gonna, they're gonna get on the path and, and go, it's a hero's journey, right?
Norbert Orlewicz Yeah. I was just going to say, it sounds a lot like the hero's journey. I'm glad you made that distinction between a support group and transformation.
Because that's a huge difference, you know, and I guess as a coach, you kind of want to, you want to make that decision, decision and distinction as to what kind of a coach do you want to be? Do you want to be a coach that just provides a safe space for somebody to go through their issues? Or do you want to be a coach that actually delivers? Transformation, because that's a different journey,
Gabriel Keczan yeah. And I realized that for years in my therapy practice.
I'm one of the game of how it's set up is that I was colluding with a lot of people's comfort and their victim stories. And that's why I had to step away from that discipline into the, the hard to define space between coaching and therapy, which, yeah, we're coming back to is, is leadership.
Um, and, uh, because it is uncomfortable and it's disruptive and people need to want it. They need to say, Lead me, lead me, cross check me with truth, show me where I'm lying to myself. I want, I want to live in truth. I want to, and I, and I, and I, I'm willing, I'm willing to go through this discomfort.
Norbert Orlewicz I want to stay on this leadership thing just for just for one more point, because there's something that you mentioned, and this was a huge realization and awakening for me. And it's still a constant ongoing journey for me as well. Um, you talked about men in marriage, keeping love alive. And this was something that I learned in when I went through my divorce and then trying to learn what happened, right?
Like what, what was, where did I go wrong? And luckily I pointed the finger at myself.
I looked at, you know, it was a two way relationship. There's both issues that we both had. And, you know, we, we obviously both contributed to the demise of that marriage. And it was 12 years we were together. We had two little kids. Um, so it was, it was a challenging time to go through. But I quickly, because of the personal growth work that I'd already been doing, I quickly turned the finger to myself and I started taking responsibility and learning, you know, how was I showing up in this relationship? And I learned that I was the, that typical nice guy. That was my, my thing, recovering nice guy. Right. Um, and I learned that as a man, you need to take a hundred percent, a hundred percent responsibility for the love and affection and the passion and the romance. in your marriage. And that was, as for some men, it can seem, I think, a little daunting because a lot of men are like, well, wait a second, shouldn't she be, you know, initiating and shouldn't she be doing this and that. But it's incredibly empowering when you experience, and I experienced this for myself many times now, when you just show up with a different energy in the relationship. It immediately changes it immediately shifts. Can you speak to that, that power of leadership that a man has in relationship to turn things around?
Yeah.
Gabriel Keczan And thank you for bringing us here because this is, uh, I mean, I'm a, I'm a player coach too, right? Cause I'm in the game making all the mistakes, but also seeing the patterns and seeing that, yes, that's how I hold it all. If I'm, Uh, prospective new client I'm tracking in our conversation. How much real estate does she take up?
Because if it turns into a blame game of like, well, she did this and she did that. And then this, and then she, and then I'll, I'll, I'll let him in on what I'm tracking. I'm like, I'm tracking this. Cause really, this is about you. Cause what, what you can do is. You can, you can work on you and when you, you know, change you, everything changes.
Uh, and, uh, so nice guy syndromes, a big part of it and teaching guys what that even is, and I, I'm a huge, um, player in that never ending game of killing the nice guy and. And I use the word killing on purpose, because we need to kill that guy in order to completely run your sword through his heart and go, I'm going to compost this energy and turn it into another level of leadership, another octave of containment, and Yeah, of those four archetypes, king, warrior, lover, magician, the lover and the magician are much more feminine, but the warrior and the king provide structure, provide fire, provide masculine striving, and that's provisional.
Um, that's where we build the house and that is where the love lives. We cannot get to the lovers in the, in the story who find each other in the garden unless the warrior has already built the garden wall to keep the. The war, the warring hordes out or whatever, whatever
Norbert Orlewicz Yeah.
Gabriel Keczan you know, and so there's a time to go out into the wild and remember what's out there for us.
And there's a time to create sanctuary. And, I think that the trouble with this, within this conversation is we've also been, um, a couple of generations in to a program that has, Emasculated and sedated men through public schooling through universities, where where feminism is, is the new hegemony. You can't even question it.
Um, and, um, Guys, that's starting to be revealed now that through men's work in the last decade or so, guys are realizing that there's this huge inner world that we need a brotherhood of men on the path to be able to unlock. And there's so much energy there when we realize that all that gold is within.
Uh, and then, you know, It's disruptive because with this systemic sedation of men, we've also got, uh, a lot of boss girls out there who are out there. Women career driven. Um, one of my most viral Facebook posts was called nice guys and boss girls.
Norbert Orlewicz Oh yeah.
Gabriel Keczan Yeah, I went into depth around why we're a society of nice guys and boss girls. I mean, I was generalizing on purpose, of course, because I'm there, I'm trying to just surf out a art of the deal, like, hey, let's just see who's, who responds to this. And I got a whole bunch of hate and triggers because everybody didn't like it.
They're like, wait a minute. But they could sense that I was, And there was truth in it and so it was uncomfortable and then the other half of the people who read that post were literally messaging me asking for help. They're like, Oh, my God, I'm such a boss girl. And my relationship is hurting because of it.
How do I fix it? And, um, because I'm not interested in ideology anymore. Maybe there was a season for that. I'm interested in solving real problems in people's lives. And that that's about the quality of the relationship. Between men and women. And is it working? Is it working? And why is it not working?
Norbert Orlewicz I, I wanna dive into that just a little bit more because I, I don't know how controversial this podcast is gonna get, but I, I, I, you know, I, I like where this conversation is going, and you just brought up, you know, something that's a really intimate and, um, powerful topic, and that is sex and you're connecting it to the boardroom and things like this. Can you speak to that just a little bit more? What, what, what are you, what do you mean by that? What do you mean by. You know, how, how does our sexuality relate to our, our business, our life, our relationships outside of that intimate relationship?
Gabriel Keczan Well, sex and money are intimately connected. We know this, right? The, uh, even, even in, um, uh, Think and Grow Rich, Napoleon Hill talks about sexual transmutation. He didn't have the language, you know, a hundred years ago to, to bring it into nuance, but he was talking about it. And when we're Seeking freedom, uh, it comes in a few concrete ways in our human experience.
And one of them is orgasm and there's a little death. That's what the French call it, right? Le petit mort and, and the other feeling of freedom that probably comes close to that little, little death is getting paid. And there's an energetic correlation between getting paid and getting laid. And of course, women are looking for men of status, uh, who can provide.
Because, you know, going through childbirth and being vulnerable and being provided for is an incredible opening and softening and willingness to trust that as men will never know, will never know, like the depth of that, the surrender that they will, they go through to just bring babies into the world.
Like what a miracle. Um, so it, it, you know, brings, brings up our kind of noble, noble duties as, as men to be able to provide and to, um, lead, you know, and, uh, and figure it out even when it's hard and find a way. Um, so yeah, sex and money paid and laid, and that's just how it is. Right.
Norbert Orlewicz So there's some insights that we can learn. Uh, I think, so if we, if we're having challenges with money, are we having challenges with sex? Is there with our openness in the bedroom with our ability to communicate?
Gabriel Keczan There's a
Norbert Orlewicz Or is that
Gabriel Keczan Complete correlation and it's around the fulcrum of desire because sex is desire money. Everybody wants more of and look at sales. Sales is all a game of seduction. Sales is all about keeping creating an environment that is conducive to someone saying, yes, nobody buys when they're sold. Nobody wants to buy when they're sold to, but everyone loves to buy when.
Not when they think they should, but when they feel like it. Buying is a feeling state. And so it's as a digital marketer, you know, all about the seduction game and that you don't just go from A to B. You got to go from A to 1, 2, 3, 4, maybe 5 yeses before the final yes. And you got to, you know, cross check them with a, you know, Make sure you're um, you know get out of here if you don't want this like you you have to play push pull and that's that's seduction too, so that's also what I love about business and closing deals and um the dance because uh, it's About commitment at the end of the day.
Norbert Orlewicz That is, yeah, that's so funny
because as marketers, we've always talked about, uh, we've used the, the metaphors of, uh, of dating, right? You're not going to just ask a strange lady and marry you on day one. You've got a romance or you've got a seducer and that's what the marketing game is all about. So I did not think the conversation was going to go in this direction, but, uh, but I'm enjoying it. Let's talk about polarity, polarity in relationships. I like to talk about polarity in marketing. I just saw a recent post by, uh, a female coach for men and she posted a post just about Elon Musk talking about, um, just like his personality and how he's been able to accomplish so much. Right. And he even, she even first line, she had to say, whatever your feelings are about Musk, you know, here's some qualities that I want to talk about. Cause she's talking about she's, she's coaching for men. And obviously one of the first comments was, Oh my goodness, you've just destroyed your brand by using his name. And of course I laughed at that and I had to comment back and said, and I said, dude, you don't know nothing about branding. Branding has to repel as much as it attracts. Right? What she's doing with that post is attracting her tribe and that's what we want to do. Tell me about your experience with polarity, with triggering posts, with establishing your brand and being strong in what you stand for and what you stand against.
Gabriel Keczan Um, great question I mean i'm still getting better at standing just that in itself right now. I have a post a couple three days old that says um people
Norbert Orlewicz I think I'm looking at
Gabriel Keczan Yeah, is it the Trump one? It
Norbert Orlewicz I was going to bring it up.
Gabriel Keczan who are triggered by Trump have, uh, father wounds to look at. I think that's
Norbert Orlewicz Yeah, I wanted to
Gabriel Keczan I just,
I just surfed that out there.
I didn't, I didn't say like, I'm a closet Trump supporter, or I'm like, I didn't say anything about myself.
Norbert Orlewicz We're Canadian, so like, we don't even have a dog in the game
Gabriel Keczan Yeah, I just, I just said that. I said what I said. And, and then you see the comments pour in and they're like, Oh, this is just clickbait. You just want, and now I'm clicked on and I'm commenting. I'm like, I'm actually serving you because I'm showing you something that you might need to look at and you can look away.
You don't need to look at this shit. Why don't you shut your damn phone off and go, go, go get to work, you know? Um, but if you're willing to look, and if you're willing to lean in, uh, this, This whole world is polarizing and it's, it's here to right now we're, we're in, we've never been in a more divided, uh, condition of, but I mean, I've been running men's groups and I even ran, um, Art therapy groups for kids and I remember we were debriefing these therapy groups in supervision and I remember some common theme at the time I think it was Stephen Harper who was the leader and men in this these men's groups would have a huge charge and then they'd on a break they'd rant about how much they hated Stephen Harper.
I mean now it's Justin Trudeau it's easy to you know. hate him. But the reason we look to the heads of states as men is because they are father figures. Whether you like it or not, that man represents the father of the country right now. And that's why people have, right now, Trump derangement syndrome.
Someone this morning shared me a link on that thread to a Byron Katie episode, you know, Byron Katie,
Norbert Orlewicz I've heard the
name, don't think I've,
Gabriel Keczan she's a big name. She's been on Oprah and writes books about triggers and writes about how to turn triggers upside down and kind of turn them inside out and really get curious. So she's brilliant.
Her, her, her Main work is called loving what is. Um, but, but it was a old reel from 2017 of a woman who was, uh, talking about how afraid she is of Donald Trump. And Byron is just sitting beside her listening and then just like trying to get the facts of all her fear and all her fears laid out on the table, why she fears Trump.
And then the game is like, ask yourself if it's true, like, are those assumptions true? Is he going to, Is he going to do that? Is he going to steal that? Is he going to, you know, all the, and then, um, so it's a, it's a playful way to play with the, the, the. The game of, and, and from a voting perspective, I think it was around the time of the last election, realized people vote like they would, uh, uh, choose a parental figure, an idealized parental figure.
Um, they tend to look for leadership of someone who mirrors their desired experience of a parental figure. And you do that with. With bosses too, right? And in workplaces, um, we project onto people in authority, a parental figure.
So that'll bring up a lot, you know, looking at Trump. And when, when I was listening to Trump on Rogan before the election, I, uh, it's a, it's a long, slow episode.
So you got to kind of just take in like, this is the essence of the man uncensored. And he was talking and joking. And I was like, man, he reminds me of my dad. Because my dad was a farmer, but he was a self employed businessman with an eye constantly on the math of the bottom line. And so Trump's there, but that's his business, is he's a businessman first and foremost, not a career politician.
So he's breaking the status quo and he was a lifelong Democrat. And so it was RFK and now they're in this, this other position. Anyway, I don't want to go too far down that the point is these, these leaders are father figures and they're going to stir the pot of the wounds.
Norbert Orlewicz I love it. I think this is what I love so much about this space, the coaching space, and we call it the mentoring space. That's why we chose the name digital mentors because mentoring is a term that doesn't have all of those connotations like coaching. Oh, you have to be a certified coach, you know, or consultant, you're a consultant. Mentoring to us is just. Somebody who has an experience, who has, uh, an expertise and is able to guide somebody else to achieve what they want to achieve, right? Really, really simple terms. We've all been, we've all mentored others, whether it's been kids, whether it's been our kids, or it's somebody at work, we've all been mentors to somebody else.
So I think it's a very natural role for us to take, especially the more mature we, we get, we become, we'd have to step into certain roles of mentorship. What for you has been some of the most challenging experiences in coaching, in running your coaching business, being a coach, being a therapist, working with people, growing your business, managing all of this.
What's been some of the biggest challenges that you've faced? On this journey.
Gabriel Keczan Probably just marketing itself. Like the, the, the weird thing is there's a lot of people who are, um, successful in the field who there are great marketers. Yeah. And they, they really figured out how to sell their brand, sell their, whatever they're selling. But the, the question is how much are their clients or customers really getting a transformational experience?
Like. Are they really getting intimacy? Are they really getting seen? And so, I've got the transformation game down, but packaging it and communicating it into the world has been a challenge, because the world buys at, like, a seven year old reading level, or, you know, you have to be able to explain it to someone at that level, right?
So, it's an emotional game, um, but people are in pain, and And so sometimes I have to, I have to learn how to unlearn how, how I think and talk and be able to serve selling as serving and just meet the pain people are in.
Norbert Orlewicz Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, that's, that's why we do what we do is because that's what we've discovered as well, is that there's so many great people with incredible knowledge, expertise, incredible value to share with the world. But the challenge is getting the message out there and connecting with your, with your tribe. And nowadays, 2025, there's so many different ways that you can do it. There's so many different people giving you advice. There's so much noise online. There's a hundred different ways that you could build your business. The challenge is figuring out what's going to be the best way for you and having that plan that you can stick to over a long period of time.
Cause people ask me all the time, they say, Norbert, what's the best marketing strategy to grow my business? And my answer to them usually is having one. Cause what I noticed is that most people don't actually have a strategy. They've got a bunch of little tactics that they're trying and they try it for a little bit and they don't stick with it long enough to actually make it work.
And just like you, you, you say with, with men, like, we need that tribe, we need that brotherhood, to have that camaraderie, to have somebody call us out on our shit. I think as a business owner and a, and a mentor, I was just having this interview with, with another, with another friend of mine. And we're just talking about how this whole game of solopreneurship is just so flawed, right? Trying to build a business on your own is probably the stupidest thing you could do. Like you, you need, I've, every business I've built, I built with partners. And a built in community I built in collaborations with others, whether it's affiliates or it's, or it's partners.
Um,
I'm always looking for collaborations. How can, how can we create win win scenarios? It's probably why I love the podcast model so much. Um, we've never done an official podcast, but since 2008, when we launched our first company in 2008. We ran a Wednesday webinar every single week for 15 years, and that live free Wednesday webinar was our opportunity to connect with our tribe and have that intimacy, these intimate conversations where people can just get to know you. And so it's not so much about selling. Like, I think. What you said there about, you know, you got to learn how to like how to sell and how to find people online for me, really, it's about finding your, your way to get your message out there consistently and build that tribe of people around you. Right.
There's the concept of like the thousand fans. Right? Finding that thousand people who love what you do. And that's really all we're looking to do is I don't need a million followers. I'm not going to be an influencer. I just need to find my tribe. What are some of the things that you have done that has worked for you to find your tribe, to fill some of your programs, to get some of your clients you think about it?
Gabriel Keczan Well, uh, I wrote the book and that was one thing. I guess just using social media, like using it. As a tool and I remember doing a live one day and I just the spirit was just moving through me and I just started talking about the pain men were in and speaking into transformation and talking about the possibilities and there was a guy who literally heard that live on Facebook and Reached out to me because he was going through a divorce and I think within less than a week We were working together and and he was like, I need your help.
Whatever I've never I never heard that before the way that you were saying that like it it touched him So I think this tribal recovery thing and breaking the isolation that is one of the biggest villains facing men is the A game that I think is mitigated by greater mysteries than us. We, you know, we, I sometimes say that God is in the algorithm, uh, because you sometimes, you know, you can look at it just as kind of bubble gum and, and, and, you know, junk food, but sometimes there's something in there that's.
Incredible and that you were meant to see and it moves you just last night. I got on a call spontaneously and it completely shifted my being and I didn't even know I was going to get on that. I spent an hour or so on this zoom call with a group of people. Um, so sometimes you got to Beadaholique. Take it, you know, and, and see what
happens. Play it, play with it.
Norbert Orlewicz right. I feel like there's so many parallels between the work that you do with men and the work that we do with with coaches to help them in marketing and business, you know, um, it's it's stepping out of your comfort zone. It's stepping into your leadership because that's that's what I've always taught is. Marketing is about you stepping into your leadership and fully owning the value that you bring into the world and standing behind it with a hundred percent conviction, you know, having the courage to make that post, knowing you're going to piss some people off because you stand for something. Uh, when I talk about branding. I really simplify marketing because I have no marketing degrees. I have no certifications. I don't have any degrees. I'm a theater school dropout and a snowboard bum, right? Like I just learned all this stuff myself. Right? So I teach marketing in a very simple way. Here's branding for me, four questions.
Who are you? Who do you serve? How do you serve them? And what do you stand for? Just answer those four basic questions and then stand by that and then show up, show up on a consistent, like what you just shared there about doing that Facebook live and, and attracting that perfect ideal client to you just by showing up on a Facebook live. And when you look at the most successful marketers online, what do they do? They just show up whether it's on Instagram, whether it's Tik TOK, whether it's YouTube, whether it's Facebook live, it doesn't matter. You just got to show up. And share your message because like, especially with you, you know, your message is so powerful. I know for me, when I first heard these concepts in the whole men's development work, um, when I was going through my divorce, I was like, why are men not taught these things? Like, oh my God, I got to teach these things to my boy because like, I had no idea. About women. I had no concept. I had no idea about the, about relationships until I went through that crisis.
And this is kind of, I think maybe this is the last question that I want to, um, wrap up with here. Cause we got, we got an hour in already. Um, is crisis necessary? Do we have to, and this is in business, this is in marketing, this is in relationships, this is in our own transformation, you know, you talked about disruption, you talked about hitting crisis. I know for me, I had to be near bankrupt before I had my first success in business. I had to go through a divorce to finally improve my relationships. Is crisis necessary? Is disruption necessary? Do we have to be broken down before we can really achieve our potential? All
Gabriel Keczan The short answer. I like the, I love the, um, I love the question of authority and I can't remember if it was, uh, John Maxwell, if it was one of those older, older guy coaches, who's been around in the game. And, uh, the question somebody was asking him was, you know, about his And his, his answer was.
Divorce bankruptcy and addiction and they're like, okay, then, well, then you can help us. Let's talk about the deal. Like, how can how can how much what's your fee? You know, let's let's let's do business. Um, because a lot of the times if you've been able to go through those initiations, those cruciples, I remember listening to a teacher play with the word crisis once.
And you talked about Christ is, Christ is, and finding that moment where you are on your knees, because you don't know where else to turn, and you start, you know, genuinely praying, uh, for guidance, and that, I mean, I think that's why this work is also Uh, to put yourself out there as a helper because you've been through some shit is to answer a call to help others go through it.
And, um, the crisis helps. Definitely.
Norbert Orlewicz right, Gabriel, we're going to wrap it up. Can you tell everybody where they can connect with you? What's the best way to connect with you to your website link. We're going to have all that in the show notes and description below as well. Uh, but just let us know how, uh, men and women can connect with you.
Gabriel Keczan Here's my
Norbert Orlewicz Alive on purpose.
Gabriel Keczan This is my book on Amazon, and that's, um, where you can pick that up or Audible if you like. Audios, and that's the book for men or Facebook, LinkedIn. My website is gabriel kaza.com and it's just getting updated right now, like this week. So excited to be able to have a new web, shiny new website to, to look at and find out more info and create more opportunities, and yeah.
Thank you for, for this time.
Norbert Orlewicz Yeah. Awesome. Fantastic. Gabriel. Um, I definitely want to continue this conversation. And another point we'll probably bring you back on, uh, in the future as we, as we grow this podcast. So thank you so much for, uh, for being here. This has been a great conversation. Really enjoyed it. So thanks so much. We're going to leave, like I said, all the links and show notes in the description, all the links to connect with Gabriel as well.
And if you are a coach, consultant, trainer, or expert, hit us up. And you are looking for clarity in your marketing and client acquisition strategy. Uh, so you can enroll more clients.
Join us for the next digital mentors compass workshop. It's a free interactive workshop. Like I said, we're going to help you get crystal clear on your messaging and your offer.
You can register for free at compass workshop. Dot com. And if you enjoy this episode, please share it with your network. We're a growing podcast. We need your help. So share it with your network and your audiences. Be sure to subscribe. So you don't miss our episodes. This has been a conversation between two coaches.